Nicki Ellington: [00:00:00] Um, imposter syndrome and ultimately to me, I, uh, would define it as this experience, this feeling, and these thoughts that despite your, whatever external successes that you've been having, despite whatever achievements that you've accomplished, that you internally feel not good enough, like you don't deserve it, like you're a fraud, that people are gonna find out at some point. Nicki Ellington: And, um, everyone will know that you're a big phony. And this is something that I talk with lawyers about probably on a daily basis. It probably comes up in one capacity or another. In almost every single group that I run in every single assessment individual session, it's so commonly experienced, right? Nicki Ellington: And there really doesn't seem to be any, um, Groups of lawyers that don't experience it.[00:01:00] Dr. Harold Hong: Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a loved one, struggling with substance use or mental health. When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most people have no idea where to turn. We hope to shed some light onto what is often the darkest hour for many families. Dr. Harold Hong: Nikki Ellington has been the Eastern Clinical Coordinator with a lawyer assistance program since 2014. She is dually licensed mental health and addictions therapist and has been practicing in the mental health field for the past 17 years. Ms. Ellington worked in a wide variety of outpatient settings with particular experience treating professionals and special forces services [00:02:00] members through her employment with the United States Army. Dr. Harold Hong: Ms. Huntington provides a confidential mental health service to any judge, lawyer, or a law student in the eastern half of the state, which encompasses High Point to the Outer Banks. Nikki Ellington, thank you for joining us here and finding New waters. It's Nicki Ellington: so good to have you. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Nicki Ellington: All right, Dr. Harold Hong: great. So I think it's always helpful for our listeners to know more about you. So can you just tell us a little bit about your background and what kind of work you're doing with the L A P? Nicki Ellington: Yeah, definitely. So as you mentioned, I've been in the mental health field for the last 17 years and, um, have had a lot of really good experiences, mostly in outpatient treatment. Nicki Ellington: I've been able to do a lot of addictions work throughout my career. I'm mental health as well. Mm-hmm. And at the Lawyers' Assistance Program, I've been here for eight years and we provide free and confidential, I'll say it twice, confidential mental health support to [00:03:00] any lawyer in the state, and, um, My job is awesome. Nicki Ellington: I love my job. Um, I love working with the attorneys and the professionals, and I feel really grateful to be able to provide a safe space for lawyers to get the help that they need. Mm-hmm. That's awesome. Justin Mclendon: So what does that look like? Can you tell us a little bit like, you know, if a, if a lawyer is, is struggling, like how does that, how does that process work? Nicki Ellington: Yeah, so most of the attorneys that I work with are self-referred, so they've heard about us. Our program's actually been around since the seventies and it started, it started originally out of Alcoholics Anonymous. Mm-hmm. With one. Uh, 12 stepping one lawyer, 12 stepping another. Mm-hmm. Um, when in need. And then over the years it's morphed into this much larger entity. Nicki Ellington: We have licensed staff now and we are able to provide services really for all types of mental health issues. So most of the time now, the attorneys have just heard about us, seen us at different [00:04:00] continuing education programs, seen us at the law schools. And, um, are able to come in and say, Hey, I'm dealing with something. Nicki Ellington: I would like a little extra help. So that is the majority of the folks that I see. That's awesome. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Very cool. So I gotta tell you, uh, I had the, the honor, uh, to speak at the LAP Conference in the fall in Asheville. And frankly, I was terrified going into that experience. I was thinking, I'm gonna be standing up talking about new material in front of a group of lawyers. Dr. Harold Hong: And as a doctor, I've been trained to fear lawyers intensely. Okay. And, um, I ha could not have been more wrong. It, the group there was so friendly, so energetic, like so down to earth. Um, and we just had a great time together. I, I loved it and I was shocked at how inviting and fun the people in the room were. Dr. Harold Hong: Um, Which to me is so like [00:05:00] the opposite of what I'll expect. Uh, being a professional thinking, you know, if I, if I have a substance use disorder, the, the medical board is going to make my life very challenging. I am, I would be terrified of referring myself to the board. And, but here I'm looking at you and you seem so friendly and open and inviting, and I just feel so confused. Dr. Harold Hong: So like, how do you talk to people about the process of making contact with l a p? Because. For me, I, I can't even imagine what that Nicki Ellington: would be like. Yeah. I, I, I mean, honestly, I do have to convince people and tell them many times that we are confidential, which is cool. I'm glad to do that. Mm-hmm. Um, but we truly, truly are, we are not the secret police waiting for you in the wings trying to get ya. Nicki Ellington: Um, although our program is funded through the state bar, we are separate and [00:06:00] private. Wow. So anybody that works. So, and the state bar is a licensing body for attorneys, right. So any attorney that works with me, their name, anything that we talk about, it's all completely private and confidential does not get reported back to the state bar at all. Nicki Ellington: So, and even, you know, there are rare exceptions where we may have a lawyer that is involved with some sort of disciplinary action. Um, And even in those cases, I don't even like to use the word mandated. Mm-hmm. Because ultimately they still have to agree. Mm-hmm. They still have to agree to work with us and agree to allow me to communicate back to the state bar the basics of their compliance with our program. Nicki Ellington: Okay. But that's very few and far between. I see. I mean, on average, I would say I probably see two to three new lawyers each week. And out of all those attorneys I probably, like right now I probably only have four that are dealing with some sort of disciplinary action. Wow. Mm-hmm. Um, that's directly related to their mental health. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. So it's, yeah, majority are self [00:07:00] referred. And um, I think my observation as an outsider looking in has been the LAP has done a good job over the years of trying to really. Reinstate that we are confidential and reinforce that for the attorneys in the community. Mm-hmm. So hopefully they can trust us. Nicki Ellington: Wow. Yeah. That's a huge Dr. Harold Hong: resource. Yeah. It is. Yeah. To have, have elite mental health professionals there for you to support your profession and your career. And it's confidential. Yep. Nicki Ellington: That's a huge blessing. Yeah. Well, and the other benefit, like you got to see our conference and a lot of the all, almost all of the attorneys, there are folks that had been working with us for a long period of time. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Anywhere, two plus years. Mm-hmm. So we also have this wonderful network of lawyers who are trying to lead healthy lives. That's awesome. Which is so cool. Yeah. That we can provide that space, safe space for another attorney to like, Raise their hand and [00:08:00] say, you know, I could use a little extra help. Nicki Ellington: And we're able to provide that hope that like, yeah, you can get some extra help and your life can get better. And doesn't mean that life's always gonna be perfect, but we've got a support system to help you through it. Mm-hmm. And a group of your peers to show you that it's safe and that it's okay to not have to act like you have your stuff together all the time. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. Uh, Justin Mclendon: so Nikki, I know one thing that's been, uh, One thing that you've wanted to talk about today is the, uh, imposter syndrome. I know you've been kind of, uh, passionate about that. There's been some, some talking that you've done recently about that, so maybe, maybe share a little bit with us about what's on Nicki Ellington: your mind. Nicki Ellington: Yeah, I, this has been something that I feel like lawyers and professionals generally have dealt with. You know, for a, maybe forever, for a really long time, but then, oh, now that more people are talking about it, we've got this nice, catchy name for it now. Right. Um, imposter syndrome and ultimately to me, I, uh, would define it as, [00:09:00] This experience, this feeling, and these thoughts that despite your, whatever external successes that you've been having, despite whatever achievements that you've accomplished, that you internally feel not good enough, like you don't deserve it, like you're a fraud, that people are gonna find out at some point. Nicki Ellington: And, um, everyone will know that you're a big phony. Mm-hmm. And. This is something that I talk with lawyers about probably on a daily basis. Mm-hmm. It probably comes up in one capacity or another in almost every single group that I run in every single assessment individual session. It's so commonly experienced. Nicki Ellington: Right. And there really doesn't seem to be any, um, Groups of lawyers that don't experience it really. Um, at some point, I mean, I, I wouldn't say that everyone does, right. But, um, even the people that on the outside look the most successful, the super lawyers mm-hmm. Like even them are having these same [00:10:00] feelings of insecurity and anxiety about their performance and their worth. Nicki Ellington: Um, so it can be really paralyzing. Mm-hmm. So I think. At lap. Um, this has come up so frequently also because they're able to say, I'm having these feelings, and everyone else in the room is just nodding their head like, yep, me too. I get it. Like, we've all been there, we get it, and we're able to kind of share how can we deal with that and bounce ideas off one another about what's worked for them. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. When, Dr. Harold Hong: when I saw your interest in imposter syndrome, I was actually surprised cuz I was thinking, you know, imposter syndrome is something I hear more about, like an Instagram, like TikTok, like just kind of popular media platforms and usually talking to people who are like college, young, adult, like early career. Dr. Harold Hong: Um, and so the, the idea of the imposter syndrome comes up a lot in your work working with lawyers who are early in the recovery. I was like, what's the connection? Mm-hmm. [00:11:00] Between alcohol, substances, process addiction and Nicki Ellington: imposter syndrome. You know, I don't know that the connection is with addiction, honestly. Nicki Ellington: I Okay. A, across the board, I see this with individuals that are dealing with depression, anxiety, trauma, um, substance use. Sure. I mean, really anything under the sun. And then stress, um, I've re, I've thought a lot about it and I feel like for attorneys and professionals in general, they are dealing with a different kind of stress. Nicki Ellington: And although I feel like a lot of jobs are stressful, there's a particular personality and, you know, not, not all lawyers are the same. Sure. But there's been enough. Patterns of personalities that I've observed that I think is drawn to the law. Mm-hmm. So perfectionism being an overachiever, being a type A person. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. A lot [00:12:00] of lawyers tend to fall in that category when they enter law school. They're kind of mixed with all the other folks that are in that same category. And my, you know, I went to school to be a therapist, which is a totally different experience than going to law school. School. We're all about the feelings, you know, they're like no feelings, just logic. Nicki Ellington: Uh, but at law, in law school, I. They, the way that the teaching style there, I think also doesn't set them up for a lot of success with the competition. Um, dealing with competition. It can be feel for a lot of people, very competitive. It can feel very, um, shaming if you don't know the answers, if you don't get things right now, I think. Nicki Ellington: My observation has been that I think law schools are trying to shift away from that model. Okay. Um, and I've got hope around that, but it's been a long time that they've been functioning in that framework. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, [00:13:00] so it takes a long time for change to happen. Absolutely. So I think we kind of combine those two together and it's this recipe for disaster when they enter the practice of law. Nicki Ellington: Of just this, like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know. You know? And I've heard a lot of lawyers say that in law school they teach you how to think like a lawyer. They don't teach you how to be a lawyer. Mm-hmm. Interesting. So then they enter this world where it's a whole new experience. And for a lot of folks that are overachievers and are perfectionists, they've not really had the experience of failing. Nicki Ellington: Um, they've not really had that happen. So when they enter. Law and they're like, I don't know how to do calendar call. I don't know how to write this brief or whatever. I, I'm not good with the examples all the time. Sure. But, um, the law examples, but, you know, that can really throw them, it can really throw them for a loop and that Yeah. Nicki Ellington: Sense of insecurity seems to mm-hmm. Seems to persist. Yeah. Um, [00:14:00] It and it can be addressed and dealt with. I don't know that I've seen it ever fully go away completely, but it becomes way more manageable mm-hmm. With treatment, with talking about it, with practicing alternative coping mechanisms for dealing with it. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So hopefully that describes it a little bit. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: And my hunch about it was, uh, imposter syndrome. Me being a recovering person from imposter syndrome, it is so painful. To live with it. Right. It, it's, it's work is stressful enough and managing imposter syndrome on top of work just makes things unmanageable. Dr. Harold Hong: Yep. It's so stressful. And I know that where, where there's pain, uh, there's self-medication, right? And so, um, the imposter syndrome, like a, a stressful day of feeling like you don't belong at work, you don't belong in your practice, you don't belong with your partners. Great time to go and have a drink. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nicki Ellington: [00:15:00] That is for sure. Yeah. That is for sure. And it's this like self-fulfilling prophecy, right? Like I feel like a fraud. So I certainly can't let anybody know I'm a fraud, so I have to like overachieve and overcompensate mm-hmm. And work extra so everyone knows that I'm here and I'm doing a good job, um, and do all this adding more and more and more and more to the plate, but then having that relief. Nicki Ellington: You know, substances are the perfect way. Right, perfect way. Yeah. Right. Justin Mclendon: It's fast, it's predictable. Right, exactly. It's on demand. Nicki Ellington: Exactly. Mm-hmm. And it's gonna give me that kind of numb out, mm-hmm. Avoidant, relaxed state. Right. That a lot of people are looking for that escape the escapism for sure. But the Dr. Harold Hong: irony is, Then you, when you are so encumbered by alcohol, then, then you really don't belong Yes. Dr. Harold Hong: In the practice. Like you really don't belong with holding the responsibility of, of a [00:16:00] huge legal question. Hmm. Right? Nicki Ellington: Yes. It, yes. Um. I think it takes them a long time. A lot of lawyers, it takes them a long time to get to that point where they're able to recognize that. Mm-hmm. I think the denial system is, I mean, it's strong for MO a lot, most addicts and alcoholics of course. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. But the rationalizations for lawyers, I, my observation has been really embedded in not just their personality, but also the culture of practicing law, you know? Alcohol use in particular is very integrated into the practice where, you know, you're taking clients out and I think it's often, um, Shown as a way to deal with stress. Nicki Ellington: Like, you know, oh, I've had a hard day. I'm gonna go get a drink. You know, that's, so we're kind of like laying that in cement at when we're newly in the field that this is how we deal with stress, or it's a way a lot of people deal with stress. Mm-hmm. And that then, [00:17:00] so then how do you know if you're gonna be the person that can leave it there and have the one drink? Nicki Ellington: Yeah. Or if over time, You're not able to do that anymore. Right, right, right. So I think the other piece is that for lawyers and alcohol use in particular, it's this big secret cause they don't want others to know like how bad it is. And they're able to rationalize like, well, I only drink after five. I mean mm-hmm. Nicki Ellington: I only drink when I get all my obligations done. Right. And then I'll drink, or I still pay all my bills. So like that should be fine. Mm-hmm. I go to all my kids' sports games. Mm-hmm. That's fine. Yeah. You know, I don't sh I drink in the morning. I'm not like that. Right. Um, so it's this concept two of like. Nicki Ellington: Am I really? I'm not like that. I'm not that bad. I don't need to do all that, you know? Right. And that's not how it looks for most lawyers. Most lawyers do not end up being the guy under a bridge. Right? Mm-hmm. Most of the [00:18:00] time when I see the real, um, serious external negative consequences from substance use mm-hmm. Nicki Ellington: They're usually so far down the rabbit hole of addiction that their whole life is a complete. Mess. Um, so I think we're doing better about being able to address that sooner so that we're not on fire when we're going to get help. Um, but it, you know, it's hard, it's hard to be able to challenge those denial, that denial system. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: I'm always super interested in what makes someone change. Like what brings that person to the point of saying, today is the day I'm gonna call lap. Mm. Like, whereas like, Maybe the last 300 700 days of their life was the day that they could have called l a P. So why is it on day like 800 of the opportunity that today is today? Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. So I'm curious, like in your experience, like what are, what are the things going on in like the days [00:19:00] and weeks leading up to that moment? That people self-refer. Nicki Ellington: Yep. You know, and that's almost always the first question I ask people is like, what's been going on in your life most recently that made you wanna reach out now? Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And usually it's a lot of pain and suffering. Okay. It's like they've reached this point where it's like, okay, I know that I cannot fix this on my own now and I need some help. But with lawyers, you know, that's, um, can take a long time for them to recognize that they are in a helping profession. Nicki Ellington: They are the fixers, the problem solvers. Mm-hmm. They're the people that all their clients are going to to fix their lives. They're in their personal lives. Their family usually goes to them to help them with their problems. Yeah. So to be able to say, not only that, I cannot. Fix my problems because I, for myself, because I've tried to do that and I keep ending up in the same place, if not worse. Nicki Ellington: Hmm. I also need to ask someone for help to [00:20:00] do that. It takes a lot for them to get to that point, so a lot of pain and suffering. Another thing that I've seen help a lot. A lot of our volunteers, the folks that you got to meet at our conference are so brave and willing to sacrifice their own anonymity and confidentiality to help others. Nicki Ellington: So we have a great group of folks that are willing to get up and share their stories. That's awesome. Two other lawyers. Wow. And every single time one of our lawyers does that. We get at least one phone call from someone in the audience that says, I heard this person and that's me, and I can relate to that. Nicki Ellington: And it, you helped him so or her, so I'm hopeful that you can help me too. Wow, that's great. Yeah, it's powerful. That's powerful. Yeah, absolutely. Justin Mclendon: What about specifically with the. The imposter syndrome. I know you talked about maybe people don't necessarily, you know, kind of fully get over it or whatever, but what do you feel or what have [00:21:00] you seen like in your practice in working with the attorneys that, uh, helps them kind of shift or, or move through that? Nicki Ellington: Yeah. Um, I think the first thing is being able to recognize it. Mm-hmm. So a lot of the times, We have this inner critic that is telling us that we're not good enough. Mm-hmm. And I think in the very early stages of it, folks don't even really realize that it's not real, that it's not based in reality. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. You know, they think, no, really, I'm not good enough. Like, no, that's a fact. And when they're able to slowly let people in to see that side of them, then others are usually able to kind of question like, well wait. Didn't you tell me that you've, you know, you have had all these successes. Nicki Ellington: You did get into law school, you, there's a certain bar you have to meet. They get into law school, they let you in. One of my coworkers, Candace, I'll steal one of her stories, um, she shares about experiencing imposter syndrome on our, we have a podcast as well. Oh, cool. [00:22:00] And um, she told this story about how when she went to law school and she told this professor, you know, I really don't think I'm supposed to be here. Nicki Ellington: I feel like, you know mm-hmm. Like you guys. Definitely probably messed up in get in accepting me in here and, and the professor's like, okay, so you think not only that, you know better than us who accepted you in the first place, but that you're so smart that you tricked us all. She's like, Hmm, okay. Right. Nicki Ellington: She tells the story way better, of course. But I mean, to me that's like the perfect example of what that feels like. So when you're able to recognize, I think, so awareness, I think is the first step. Okay. Being able to notice like, okay, this inner critic is happening. Can I evaluate? If it's based in facts? Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Then being able to say, all right. I feel like, um, I've made a mistake or, or I've had a failure, a bad experience is that based [00:23:00] in facts. So I'll give another example of that where I had a lawyer contact me that, um, I'd been working with for a while and the attorney said, called me one day and said, I just lost my case. Nicki Ellington: I'm a horrible lawyer. I should just quit. I should never do this again. I'm clearly not meant to practice law. I just need to leave and you know, eventually if I keep going, I'm probably just gonna get disbarred anyways. I'm like, wow, okay. Like, let's slow down. Tell me what happened. So you lost your case. Nicki Ellington: Okay. Well it seems to me, you know, I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me there's always a winner or loser in these things. Did you make it from you? From what you can tell? Did you make any major mistakes? Was there anything that happened that went terribly wrong that you did? Mm-hmm. Right? The attorney's like, no. Nicki Ellington: And I'm like, okay. Well, so it seems to me like you tried your best. You did your best. We haven't noticed any major mistakes. There's a winner and a loser. Mm-hmm. You were the loser this time, and that's how it [00:24:00] works. Right? And that. And it doesn't necessarily mean it's because you did something wrong, right? Nicki Ellington: Right. It could be a variety of reasons that caused you to not win this case. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and that doesn't mean anything about your worth or your skill as a lawyer. So being able to kind of have that awareness and then being able to evaluate the facts. Is I think the next step. Mm-hmm. Now, a lot of the times, like for this attorney, they really weren't able to evaluate the facts for themselves. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. So they had to like phone a friend, they phoned me. Mm-hmm. Um, and we have a whole, you know, all of our volunteers do that for each other where they're able to say in a group or, or call a friend or call one of, um, our mentors and kind of talk through, this is what happened. This is how I feel. I feel like. Nicki Ellington: I've messed up. I feel like I'm not good enough, and somebody else can then reflect back, you know, the facts. Mm-hmm. What's based in reality. And I [00:25:00] think the more that you practice that, the easier it gets over time, the faster you're able to move through it. I think in the beginning, a lot of the times it can really stick with you. Nicki Ellington: It can ruin your mood for your whole day, maybe longer, and it just lingers on. And you're able to really move through it faster and kind of be able to practice letting it go. And the other thing that, um, a lot of our lawyers have been doing that I find to be very effective is practicing mindfulness and meditation. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Okay. So being able to, especially when like, To plan ahead. Mm-hmm. Um, so if you know you've got something really difficult on your calendar coming up or something really challenging for you planning in your day, I'm going to take the five minutes after this concludes and the five minutes, maybe even the five minutes before. Nicki Ellington: Five minutes after, just to practice some mindfulness practice. Just sitting with my thoughts and letting the feelings wash over me and not attach them and practice letting it [00:26:00] go, that can be very effective. Mm-hmm. Justin Mclendon: That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big fan of mindfulness and meditation. I know Dr. Hong is as well. Justin Mclendon: Absolutely. That's, that's always refreshing to hear that. Yeah. Where that helps, right? Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. It's so shocking to how we are as humans, so easily disconnected from reality. Mm-hmm. Like, it sounds absurd, but it's so true, right? Like, we can get into our minds that all of these things are definitely. Going to happen, and we can get into our minds that like, I am definitely not the right person, uh, or I'm definitely not equipped for this, this task at hand. Dr. Harold Hong: And then a minute of reconnecting intentionally with reality. It's like, oh, like I, I used to think all these things, but now I, I, I think these things. Mm-hmm. And, and this is more functional, more realistic, and I, and I feel more confident, and this is more realistic than this scary version. Of reality. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: But for some reason, [00:27:00] some of us are so much more inclined to go this way than this way. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Like what, what's your hunch about like lawyers and like you've worked with like tier one Special Forces people in your background? Like, I know this is a really common thing across the spectrum, so like mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: What is it about? Like high expectations, high talent. High, high drive people that gets them. Disconnect reality. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. I mean, I think part of it, it's, I I always feel like it's both nature and nurture. Sure. Mm-hmm. So for me, I often feel like there probably is some stuff in Family of Origin mm-hmm. That contributes to the wiring of our brain that, uh, leads to us being maybe a little bit more anxious, um, a little bit more, um, Inclined to wanna detach from reality to avoid. Nicki Ellington: Sure. [00:28:00] Uh, so I think that's definitely a contributing factor. Is that maybe where you weren't set up. For success completely from our family of origin and that sticks with us. Mm-hmm. You know, that's, especially when it's happening in our early childhood, it's like laying like it in cement in our brain. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Um, and we have to really figure out ways to rewire that as we get older. Yeah. I think the other factor is personality. Um, I think person, those personality traits, some of them are just a part of us, uh, like having, um, the desire to want to do things right the first time. Mm-hmm. I remember, um, I have a 10 year old son and when he first started school, I remember him sitting at the table and doing some school project and. Nicki Ellington: Instantly getting frustrated cuz he couldn't do it perfectly the first time. Mm-hmm. And crumbling up the paper and throwing it across the room and I was like, oh my God. Like what is happening? But you know how, to me that was the [00:29:00] perfect example Yeah. Of how this is a part of who he is. I don't think any we made him that way. Nicki Ellington: Sure. Um, it was just kind of there, but being able anyways, so yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that's the other piece. This also the. Self-efficacy, this belief that you can be successful and can do things. Some people have a greater amount of self-efficacy naturally. Mm-hmm. Than others. Mm-hmm. True. Um, so being able to kind of recognize that, I think, anyways, I think that's a contributing factor. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. To why someone might be in that. Yeah. Those. Desires. Mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: Does it affect how they relate to their, their spouses, their partners, their kids? Or is it just, uh, a major issue at work? Nicki Ellington: I mean, I, I don't know that it could be that isolated and siloed. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, it bleeds into all areas of our life, and the more, the longer it go, it goes untreated, whether it be our substance [00:30:00] use or anxiety or depression, imposter syndrome. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Whatever stress. It's inevitable that it's going to bleed into other areas of our life and become worse over time. Mm-hmm. Without treatment, we, you know, doing nothing about it is not gonna lead to just miraculous spontaneous change most of the time. Yeah. Right. Or not in my life anyways. Uh, so. Nicki Ellington: Yeah, I think it does affect their relationships and that might also be part of the denial system that keeps them sick longer. Mm-hmm. Is like, will my kid, you know? Yeah. I drink after my kid goes to bed or, um, you know, yeah, sure. I'm at work until nine every night, but that can't have an impact on my family. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. They, you know, they know I love them and it's like, well, yeah, they do to some degree and. This also does have a impa impact on others. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: Absolutely. Yeah. [00:31:00] And I was just thinking about a family of like an like, like, uh, an upper, like an affluent, well todo family. Um, the, the parent that's a lawyer has a drinking problem and how, like, how terrifying it would be to call, name it a problem. Dr. Harold Hong: Yeah. Because what, what will the neighborhood think? What will the, the partners at the firm think, uh, what happens to all these memberships that they prize? Yep. Like, and I can see that. What, what is, how do you navigate that with the Nicki Ellington: family? Absolutely. I think that is a huge barrier to lawyers getting help. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. I think their, um, fear that other people are gonna know. That I have a problem that I cannot fix for myself. Right. And, and that I'm gonna need extra help around, or, you know, I think that's a huge challenge for them to process and work through. Yeah. Mm-hmm. [00:32:00] I, the one, one benefit of being able to come to LAP is that we are, we're all like, they're all in there together. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. And they're, they've all kind of lived through that experience of having to kind of say, Yeah, it is hard for people to know and a lot of it is too, is like that's your disease of alcoholism, keeping you sick. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That ultimately, no. Most people that don't have a drinking problem don't care. Nicki Ellington: They don't care. They, they really don't, they're not thinking about you. Right. Like that extensively. Yeah. Most of the time. Mm-hmm. They're not watching you at the business meeting to see if you're consuming alcohol. Mm-hmm. And what I always remind people too is if someone does tend to comment or give you a hard time about not drinking, it's usually probably because they have a drinking problem themselves. Nicki Ellington: You know, you're the mirror like, um, so it's. [00:33:00] Being able to talk about it, I think helps being, when we are able to name it, when we're able to say it, it gives it less power. Mm-hmm. So when we're able to do that in a safe place, Like lap, like here at New Waters. Mm-hmm. Then we're able to really move through it and, um, get the help that we need. Nicki Ellington: Yeah, Justin Mclendon: absolutely. Yeah. I could imagine how disarming that can potentially be for somebody if they're, you know, holding on. So, uh, so tightly, so rigid about like this belief about their self and not needing, not wanting to let this out, but then like you said, being able to come into a group where it's like, oh, we're all the same, we're all dealing with the same Nicki Ellington: stuff, which is mm-hmm. Nicki Ellington: And with substance abuse in particular. Yes. I think. A lot of the lawyers, they really feel like they're doing a good job hiding it. Mm-hmm. But they're really not. Yeah. You know, um, people know. Yeah. People know already to some degree y they probably do have an idea and ESP and. I try to help them to [00:34:00] see like, wouldn't you much rather people know you as the, a healthy version of you mm-hmm. Nicki Ellington: Than a person who's sick, than a person who's smelling like alcohol in the elevator at the courthouse mm-hmm. Than the person that Yeah. You know, is sneaking out to get beers at lunch. Mm-hmm. Versus someone like that's going to therapy and getting help. Sure. Like, I'd much rather someone know me like that. Nicki Ellington: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Absolutely. Yeah, I think. That, that's one of the things about imposter syndrome is like the only thing worse than feeling like you don't belong is other people seeing that you don't belong. Mm-hmm. Uh, or other people believing that. But all of this is just in our own thinking, right? Dr. Harold Hong: Yep. Just like you're saying, like people don't think like that. Like they're, they're really not, and they, they would much rather have you whole and healthy mm-hmm. And recovered than struggling and slowly burning yourself out. As you're trying to juggle all of these problems simultaneously Nicki Ellington: and convincing 'em of that, especially when I'm dealing [00:35:00] with an attorney that I believe could really benefit from going to inpatient treatment. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That can be a big barrier, right? Where they. Um, have a lot of reasons why they should not go. A lot of them are valid. They do have important cases. They do work a lot. They, they will be missed to some degree if they take the time off to get the care that they need. And I probably send myself, and I have a counterpart, Kathy, that works at the Charlotte office, but I would say I probably send between 10 and 20 attorneys each year to treatment inpatient treatment. Nicki Ellington: Life goes on. Yeah, life goes on, the firm goes on, and we have options to help you through that. Especially a lot of solo practitioners, folks that are in their own firm with no administrative help really get stuck in that mindset that I cannot take this time off. And there are some real challenging situations that would make it [00:36:00] difficult, and we will do our very best at LAP to support you to brainstorm ways. Nicki Ellington: That we can support you to help you to get the help that you need versus staying stuck because you feel like you can't go, cuz you can't financially afford it. Cuz you can't take the time off cuz you can't not collect a new business. Mm-hmm. For the folks that do take that healthy risk and go get the help they need, I've never seen them look back and say, my life is worse now. Nicki Ellington: Mm. Never. Right. Dr. Harold Hong: That's awesome. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: Uhhuh. Well, especially in this thought that just came up while you were talking is the, um, especially like the imposter syndrome piece, I think. I wonder how much like just desensitization maybe helps with that. Like, for example, like, um, you know, I can't let these people know that I'm not good enough, so I have to overcompensate, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Justin Mclendon: Uh, and then what if they leaned into, You know, what if I just ask for help? Right? Or what if I do actually take time [00:37:00] to focus on my mental health or physical health and things like that. So I wonder seeing those individuals, those as attorneys that do recover, do turn their lives around, do you find kind of a, like an over or a portion or overwhelming part of those people, like be able to kind of handle Nicki Ellington: that stuff better? Nicki Ellington: For sure. Yeah. I think ask my opinion is that asking for help is a skill. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. That is a skill that not everybody knows. Yes. And especially within the practice of law. And I can imagine in lots of other types of professions, it's not really ingrained in the culture of Right. That prac of practicing law to ask for help. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Um, so that is a skill that has to be learned. And I think the lawyers that go to treatment that get help that, that participate in support groups, they are learning that. And that doesn't mean that it's always going to be easy. Sure. And another benefit of being amongst your peers is there's some accountability there that somebody else can say.[00:38:00] Nicki Ellington: Well have, did you think about asking for help in that situation and mm-hmm. Then you're able to say, oh no, I really wanted to buckle down and do it myself. Sure. Right. Yeah. Um, so you have other people that can reflect back that maybe remind yeah. That maybe this would be a good time to try, you know, getting back on that horse of asking for help and using That's great. Nicki Ellington: All the coping mechanisms. Mm-hmm. Justin Mclendon: That's great. That's good stuff. We all need a little accountability and support for sure. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Um, sometimes our family members or our, our partners see it way before we do. Uh, can they reach out to lap Yes. Anonymously or say like, have a friend. Uh, and if you've ever had one of those situations, can you tell us about a story about Nicki Ellington: how that worked out? Nicki Ellington: Yeah, for sure. And, um, Family members, spouses, even other attorneys will call us. Uh, that [00:39:00] whole uh, conversation can be confidential. Okay. And I'm able to kind of process with them what's the best avenue to handle it. Mm-hmm. So I can think of, I have several examples where that has happened, but I can think of one in particular where a wife called about, Her husband that was, um, suffering from alcoholism and really entrenched in it and, and really was scaring her. Nicki Ellington: Um, wow. It was a pretty scary situation. Mm, mm-hmm. Not for her physical safety, but for his own health. Sure. And um mm-hmm. She was afraid he was gonna die. Yeah. And she was able to call and we were able to help stage an intervention for this attorney to go to treatment and, Thankfully he did, and we were able to kind of help her through the process of navigating, getting into treatment. Nicki Ellington: That in itself can be a really difficult thing Absolutely. To navigate being able to know, where do I even go? Mm-hmm. Who do I call? Mm-hmm. Right. [00:40:00] What about my insurance? Who's gonna pay for that? Right. You know, so be, uh, we are able to, we are kind of, Kathy and I, the two clinicians at LAP are kind of the boots on the ground within the treatment industry mm-hmm. Nicki Ellington: To give guidance about, like, this might be a great place for your significant other based on what you're telling me about him. And we're also able to provide some extra support to the spouse that. What we can do when we're living with someone that's in active addiction, cuz unfortunately they're not always gonna be ready when you want them, probably rarely are ready when you'd like them to be ready. Nicki Ellington: That's great. So we're able to kind of help them process that as well by, you know, us providing support, but also providing resources mm-hmm. To this significant other. Other lawyers will have reason to call sometimes too, when they're concerned about a colleague. Mm-hmm. And we're also able to provide intervention confidentially and in a safe way. Nicki Ellington: We're able to keep the referral source [00:41:00] completely private. We do not re report to anyone about who has called Okay. About the lawyer that they're worried about. Um, lawyers get in trouble sometimes too. Sure. And people. Tend to know when that happens. Mm-hmm. So we're able to kind of say, offer a hand. Nicki Ellington: That's how I would put it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We can't force anyone to do anything. Uh, we're the carrot, not the stick. So we're able to kind of say, Hey, we've heard you're having a hard time, whether it be myself or one of our lawyer volunteers that, um, fall under the same confidentiality policy that I do at lap. Nicki Ellington: Okay. They're able to kind of reach out and say, Hey, we're have heard you're struggling and. We're here to help if you'd like it. Hmm. And you know, they may not always wanna take us up on that Yeah. In that moment. But I will say majority of them do come around at some point. Wow. They usually keep that phone number. Nicki Ellington: That's awesome. And down the road when they become a little more ready or have experience, unfortunately, maybe a little more pain and [00:42:00] suffering. Mm-hmm. Sure. Then they pick up the phone and call. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. But I'm thinking about that, that family that you, you help, like the, the wife that call, I mean, It's, you literally saved a life by setting emotion, this intervention, cuz the way that this person's going, it really ends one Nicki Ellington: way. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Well, and I, I am very grateful to be a small piece and I really look at it as a small piece cuz I. The attorney is the one that has to do all the hard work and heavy lifting. We're just kind of leading the horse to water. Mm-hmm. I can't make any of them drink. Mm-hmm. But we can show them the way, we can show them the light, we can show them that there's hope and that it gets better and it really, really does. Nicki Ellington: It gets better. Mm-hmm. And it's not, you know, as you guys are well aware, it's not this linear path upwards. Sure. There's bumps along the way, and that's another piece of our program is that there's no time limit. [00:43:00] We work with people indefinitely. So even those folks that were at our conference, folks that I, I've known for eight years that have been involved with LAP for 30 years, are still gonna experience life. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. And have bumps along the way, and we are always there to support them through it, no matter. What's going on. Yeah. Because we all need that love and compassion. Mm-hmm. Dr. Harold Hong: We do indeed. We do. We, a lot of us are raised to not know that. A lot of us are raised to think you study hard, you work hard, you pay your bills, and that's all you need. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. No excuses. Dr. Harold Hong: Right. But there's so much more Yeah. Nicki Ellington: To it than that. Yep. And life becomes so much more fulfilling and joyful when we're able to kind of accept the help and move through the change and give ourselves grace. Mm-hmm. That's the other thing that with lawyers, lawyers are so hard on themselves. Nicki Ellington: That's one thing that [00:44:00] I notice really across the board. Mm-hmm. And that, you know, that perfectionism, overachieving, it's so lined up, but so hard on themselves and. Ultimately just give yourself a little grace. It's okay. Yeah. It's okay to not be perfect and to not have it all together and it's, there's no expectation of that. Nicki Ellington: Mm-hmm. We don't have any expectation of that. Mm-hmm. And we can help you to learn how to not have that for yourself. Right. Justin Mclendon: Which is huge because that's, uh, I mean, I can only imagine that's a miserable way to live. Yeah. Nicki Ellington: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Justin Mclendon: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Dr. Harold Hong: It's tough. Yeah. I mean, that, that's part of the disease, right? Dr. Harold Hong: Right. The disease is to see yourself realistically and to overreact to the pain that comes and not deal with the pain to begin with. And, and, and at that point, I, you know, I, I don't blame people for wanting to intoxicate themselves right out of that pain. Absolutely. It's awful. It's awful. Uh, but re recovery is, [00:45:00] Seeing yourself realistically and, and saying, this conversation that I've been having with myself for the past 10, 20 years, it, it doesn't make sense. Dr. Harold Hong: Mm-hmm. And, and I need to find a new way to talk to myself. Nicki Ellington: Yep. I think we all go through that, like that's kind of the human experience to some degree. Like we sure all have ways of surviving. Mm-hmm. That. As we get older, become probably ineffective and we can keep trying to force that square peg into the round hole over and over again. Nicki Ellington: Or we can reach that point where we choose to do something different. Mm-hmm. Because what we've been doing isn't working for me. Mm-hmm. It's a survival mechanism that's not helping me to survive anymore. Right. Yeah. Or maybe I want more than surviving, I wanna thrive and that's, it's not gonna be this way. Nicki Ellington: Right. Yeah. Dr. Harold Hong: Well, Nikki, this has been amazing. Uh, we talked about how dark life can be, uh, when we let imposter syndrome take us all the way to where it wants us to go. [00:46:00] Uh, but you've also seen how it can be completely different and full of life and, and fulfillment. Um, and L Lap P is free, professional and confidential. Dr. Harold Hong: Uh, what a gift it is, uh, for our lawyers in North Carolina. Um, so thank you so much for being with us here today to talk about it. Nicki Ellington: Thank you so much for having me, and I'm so happy to, um, be involved with New Waters and be a supporter of your growth and success. So thanks for having me. Thanks. Thanks for coming. Nicki Ellington: Yeah.

Welcome to Finding New Waters, the podcast that delves into the personal and professional journeys of individuals overcoming challenges and finding fulfillment. In this captivating episode, join us as we sit down with Nikki Ellington, a compassionate advocate working alongside lawyers to navigate mental health issues. In this thought-provoking interview, Nikki opens up about the pervasive experience known as imposter syndrome, a phenomenon that often leaves lawyers feeling inadequate and apprehensive that their true abilities will be exposed. Nikki and her dedicated team offer a confidential support system where lawyers can safely seek assistance without the fear of judgment or disclosure. Nikki passionately emphasizes the importance of reaching out for help when needed, as she firmly believes that everyone, regardless of their profession, can benefit from a helping hand. We delve into the detrimental impact of imposter syndrome on lawyers' well-being, exploring how it induces severe stress and may even lead individuals to adopt unhealthy coping mechanisms, such as excessive alcohol consumption. However, Nikki highlights the significance of addressing these emotions and finding healthier alternatives to cope. By fostering open discussions about imposter syndrome and promoting self-reflection, lawyers can regain their confidence and overcome its burdens. Nikki also shares how mindfulness and meditation practices have proven effective in soothing anxieties and cultivating self-assurance among legal professionals. Navigating life's challenges can be overwhelming, leaving individuals feeling anxious and fearful. Nikki introduces the concept of mindfulness as a powerful tool to combat these emotions. Through simple exercises, listeners can learn to detach from negative thoughts, allowing emotions to pass without attachment. This practice is particularly beneficial for lawyers who may struggle to distinguish between reality and distorted perceptions, as mindfulness helps maintain emotional balance and prevent the negative impact from seeping into other aspects of their lives, including their relationships with loved ones. Breaking the stigma surrounding seeking help, Nikki addresses the common apprehensions lawyers face when considering reaching out for support. Concerned about the judgments of others, lawyers may hesitate to seek assistance, forgetting that people are typically preoccupied with their own challenges. However, the reality is that seeking help is a vital step toward nurturing one's well-being. By connecting with empathetic professionals, lawyers can gain invaluable guidance, not only benefiting themselves but also safeguarding the welfare of their families and friends. Confidentiality is paramount in these support systems, ensuring the privacy of those seeking assistance. Discover the dedicated individuals working tirelessly to aid lawyers facing issues of belonging and addiction. While it may be daunting for lawyers to take that initial step, prioritizing their health and well-being is of utmost importance. These unsung heroes provide holistic support, extending their assistance to the families and friends of those seeking help. Rest assured, their commitment to confidentiality creates a secure environment, fostering growth and empowering lawyers to overcome obstacles that may otherwise jeopardize their lives. 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